Jerry Colonna, Author of Reunion, on Creating Belonging Environments: Building Inclusive, Safe, and Diverse Workplaces

Transcript

Jerry, welcome back to the show.

Jerry Colonna 00:02:30

Thanks for having me back. It’s really a delight to see you again, especially with that big smile on.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:02:36

Yeah, honestly, I am very excited to have you on. I was just telling you before we hit record that I was relistening to our last episode, episode number 71, and it was so jam packed full of good knowledge that I was saying that you can listen to five minutes and then pause and then just, like, meditate on those five minutes for a good month and then maybe go back. There was just so much stuff in there. And I feel like you probably experienced this in your coaching as well, right? It’s one thing to get insights, but it’s another thing to, like, take those insights and actually apply them. And as I was listening to that episode, I was like, yeah, these are really good insights, but I should really spend some time actually applying these things and I will get a lot more out of it doing that. But all that to say is very excited to have you back on. And as I was listening to the last episode, you mentioned this quote, and I’m going to repeat the quote just to kind of set the stage, but also hear what your thoughts are when you hear this quote. So this is by Carl Jung, which is until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct to your life and you will call it fate.

Jerry Colonna 00:03:47

Thats a great quote, right?

Aydin Mirzaee 00:03:48

Its a great quote. I feel like it describes the human condition and it goes very deep indeed.

Jerry Colonna 00:03:57

I think, in so many ways. Hi. First of all, its great to be back. Second, I think that if you wanted to summarize my entire career as a coach and arguably the entirety so far of my second adulthood, it’s in the wisdom in that quote. I’m famous for coining the phrase radical self inquiry, but what radical self inquiry is, it’s a process of trying to make the unconscious conscious, because for so many people, the major source of suffering are patterns repeating themselves and the belief system that we have no agency over changing those patterns. And so what I hear in that quote is not only wisdom until you make the unconscious conscious, but I actually hear hope, because the hope is we are not stuck like a needle on a records groove replaying the same patterns over and over again. We have agency. There’s just some real work you have to do before you can execute that agency.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:05:08

Another part of it is, and this may be a funny question to ask, but do you believe in fate?

Jerry Colonna 00:05:13

I believe in karma, which is not the same. And I’m not sure if I believe in past lives, which is a fundamental belief system behind the buddhist notion of karma, but I believe that we plant the seeds of our present day experience by our choices and our actions in the past. And I believe that we have more agency than the phrase fate would imply.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:05:43

Yeah. And I feel a lot of hope in just saying that in general. Feels good to be in charge.

Jerry Colonna 00:05:48

Yes. And I wince a little bit at the full phrase of in charge. I think it’s really important, and I feel the same hope and liberation. I think it’s really important that we not worry about fate and in a sense, not even worry about the karmic effects later on in our life. I think it’s really important that we take responsibility for our life in the day to day moment. Which is why my other famous statement, right, how have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want is so important. And the word complicit is so important relative to the word, say, responsible. It’s really critically important that we see that we play a role in our happiness or unhappiness.

Jerry Colonna 00:06:38

That’s where the hope lies for me.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:06:41

I agree. You’re very well known for that question of how I’ve been complicit. I love that. Just the framing of it. So the book, for people who haven’t read it, reboot. Incredible, incredible book. I’ve read it twice and only twice. Yeah, I know.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:07:01

The reason that you can consume it more than once, because I feel like depending on what is going on in your life or career, just the words take different meaning. Just even this question of how have I been complicit in creating conditions that I say that I don’t want. Asking that question of yourself at various points will also lead to different answers. And so I think it’s just one of those things that you can constantly go back to. And coming out of that book, you now have a new one out called reunion, leadership and the longing to belong. And so maybe we can just start with the. What compelled you to want to write this book?

Jerry Colonna 00:07:40

The catalytic moment really occurred in the summer of 2020. If you remember, way back when, we thought the pandemic was going to be over in a few weeks. And it turned out not to be the case. And it turned into a very strange summer, especially following the murder of George Floyd. And like a lot of folks, I was upset by the video. I was upset and angered by what seemed to be an ongoing process of oppression to folks who don’t look like me. And to clarify, I identify as white and straight and cisgender and male. But it really took a different turn when my daughter started joining the protests.

Jerry Colonna 00:08:27

And one night she was with about 5000 other people marching from Brooklyn to Manhattan when the group was trapped on the Manhattan bridge between two groups of police officers or two police officers on horseback. And she started texting me about being pepper sprayed. And it was in that moment that a lot of things coalesced for me. The first was something that my daughter had often said to me, kind of like a challenge, which was, dad, it’s not enough to be an ally, you have to be a co conspirator. And what she really means is an active participant in creating social justice. The second thing that occurred to me was that. And I had gotten a lot of accolades. I think that the insights that I share in reboot, I’ve come to understand are quite universal and quite moving for people.

Jerry Colonna 00:09:23

And as you know, a core tenet of everything that I do is this notion of a better human makes a better leader. And in that moment, I began to sort of question, what did I mean by better human? And to use Emma’s phrase, what component of being a co conspirator for, say, love or empathy? How does that flow into this notion of being a better human? And what I came to assert was that one of the highest expressions of leadership is the ability to create conditions not only for oneself, to complete the process of growing up, which is what I wrote about in reboot, but also to extend oneself to the larger world and to use whatever power one has to create those conditions of belonging for other people. Because among the universal feelings in my first book, Reboot, I talked about how so much of what we do is around the pursuit of love, safety, and belonging. And when we see the world and its divisiveness and its separateness and the pain and suffering, I think the answer to all of that is creating what I refer to as systemic belonging in the world at large. So, to me, there’s a through line between the first book and the second book. The first book is a call to action, to look inward. The second book is a call to build upon that work and to look at the world at large and say, how can I contribute to making it better?

Aydin Mirzaee 00:10:58

So, on this notion of systematically creating places of more belonging, do you think that that also requires self inquiry to question whether or not I am creating a space where I people can belong in my company? Is that part of the process?

Jerry Colonna 00:11:16

Yeah. As we named radical self inquiry before, and as I wrote about in the introduction to reunion, the assertions I made in reboot, which is that one must radically inquire within so that you kind of wipe away the bullshit and you start to see the reality of your own contribution to the conditions in your life. That is true, but it is insufficient to really be the better leader, the better adult, if you want, that we’re called to be. Because if I self actualize and leave the world around me, left to their own devices, then to go back to your assertion before about fate and my response around karma, what karmic seeds, what negative karmic seeds have I planted. If I am also not conscious of what your experience is like, doesn’t mean I’m completely responsible for your experience. You are also responsible for your own radical self inquiry. But to disavow my responsibility to other human beings seems to me to undermine the very definition of humanity. See, we create magic when we’re together.

Jerry Colonna 00:12:37

We create love, we create safety, and ultimately we create belonging. And that seems the highest expression of what does it mean to incarnate in a human body.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:12:50

So when you think about this idea of creating that kind of an environment, I would start by saying, like, as part of the radical self inquiry, I suppose there’s a process of figuring out are the systems and the work environment that I’m creating what is the status quo? And are they places where people can belong? How would people go about figuring out what is the status quo right now? Maybe again, by default, people think that, oh yeah, it’s fine at work. The systems that we’ve created are great. We’re pretty inclusive. The ratios that we look at in terms of our diversity are okay, maybe there’s nothing to report on there, but I suspect that that’s probably not enough. That probably doesn’t give you enough.

Jerry Colonna 00:13:38

I don’t think it does. I don’t think it gives us enough look, if we take a step back and we look at the larger world. When I wrote this book, there were protests in the street. The protests over the shooting of unarmed folks may have died down. They have been replaced by other protests against particular wars where both sides are accusing the other of genocide. And the truth is, the divisiveness that is such a mark of the world has actually gotten worse since before I wrote this book. We have arguments, and weve always had arguments on the Internet, but we have arguments against empathy. And I think that because of the state of the world, there is a.

Jerry Colonna 00:14:26

A larger call to action to do this kind of inner work in order to go beyond counting heads. See, so much of what passes for inclusivity work can feel performative, even if it’s well intentioned, because it’s not getting to the root of the issues. And yeah, some policies are better than others, some things are more effective than others. And I’m not actually opining about which policies are better than others. I’m really not. What I’m doing is suggesting that there’s a conversation that needs to be had that is a fundamental component of this. If we go back to my complicity question for a moment, it’s a slight reframe of that question, which is how have I been complicit in and benefited from the conditions in the world? I say I don’t want to see and take it out of the black white paradigm, take it out of the race paradigm for a moment. How have I been complicit in and benefited from the United States crazy fucked up policy on immigration? And more importantly, what would I be willing to give up that I love, that makes me feel safe in order to see a change in policy that really goes to the heart of who I am? You see what I’m trying to do? I’m trying to connect that radical self inquiry as a first step to what I who am I? Into what my teacher and friend Parker Palmer says in the forward to the book, whose am I? We actually debate in 2024 in the United States of America.

Jerry Colonna 00:16:08

We debate the validity of blocking immigration and even tourist visas from countries that are predominantly muslim. Okay, that is not the world I want to see. That is not the myth of America that we have been taught to believe in. We are supposed to welcome the wretched. We are supposed to welcome people. That is what has created this country. And there is a false dichotomy that somehow being open, being empathetic, being welcoming is a threat. There’s a false story.

Jerry Colonna 00:16:47

And here’s the question. Who benefits in our society by us feeling pitted one against the other? Who benefits from a continual state of war? Who benefits when we fight about policies instead of striving to make the policies better? Because I know it’s not the people at the southern border of the United States who are benefiting from that.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:17:13

When you said we started the conversation by saying it’s not enough to be an ally, you have to be co conspirator, it starts to make a lot of sense as you reframe that question around how have I been complicit in creating the conditions? But you’re right. Like, I guess the first book was very much about somewhat self centered to some extent, creating your own experiences, but then also saying, hey, I’m actually responsible for the things around me and the systems around me.

Jerry Colonna 00:17:40

At least I have a part to play in that, even if I can’t solve all those problems. As I say in the book, we who lead businesses can’t solve all that ails the world, but we can contribute more than we pretend. We can make our worlds more welcoming, create more sense of belonging within. And for me, it’s the logical extension of that inner work that I call for all the time. If you only go to the outer work without doing the inner work. You’re also in danger of just being performative. And that’s what everybody’s complaint is. These efforts are performative.

Jerry Colonna 00:18:22

They don’t create systemic change.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:18:25

I don’t know if you have any stories or examples or just things you’ve witnessed where people have actually done a really good job of creating a workplace where people can belong more.

Jerry Colonna 00:18:38

There’s a CEO with whom I’ve been in conversation. I met him after I wrote reunion, but I wish I had met him before because this is a perfect story for it. He is an immigrant to the United States by way of Australia, but he’s ethnically central american, so. Central America, Australia, United States, San Francisco. Great story. Okay. Founded a software company, software and services company. 120 or so employees in twelve countries around the world.

Jerry Colonna 00:19:11

It’s kind of our mythological prototype of what the best of us can do.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:19:17

Yeah, it’s the come here. And you can do these sorts of things.

Jerry Colonna 00:19:21

Right? Right. And he’s built a profitable business. I don’t know the top line revenue number, but it’s been operating for about twelve to 15 years. And he gives back to the entrepreneurial community all the time. It’s a great story. But here’s the thing. When I talked to him a few months ago, we were talking about the responses to all of his employees, about the challenges in the world. And what he was experiencing as he expanded to all these different countries was that there were many requests coming in for people to take off a particular day, to take off a particular holiday that was unique to their culture or the country.

Jerry Colonna 00:20:01

And so he created a system where he asked people, before they would get permission to take that day off, they had to post a story on their internal boards about what was so important for them about that particular holiday or tradition or family thing. What he didn’t anticipate was a massive outpouring of love and support by the other employees who just delighted in hearing the stories of the different cultures that were represented by the team. Now, I say this because when the inevitable discussions about, say, the war in Gaza hit, what happened was instead of the war being played out on slacken in their company, there was a presumption of understanding. There was a presumption of cultural alliance that allowed one person to hear the other person’s story. And so what didn’t devolve, what didn’t turn out was more divisiveness. But what came out was a profound sense of inclusivity based on empathy and understanding and awareness. Who you are and who I am. And so we may disagree, but we don’t have to dehumanize.

Jerry Colonna 00:21:22

I think that’s a powerful example of what it is that I’m really reaching for. I’m not proposing a set of new DEi rules. What I’m asking is for people to have real conversation as a logical and natural extension of their bid to be the best manager, the best leader that they can be.

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Aydin Mirzaee 00:22:35

It’s very interesting and this is very tactical, but what a great idea just to have a place in slack where people can share various things. And as I think about it, we have in our own slack some basic things like kids picks, where people who have kids post their kids pictures. And, you know, it’s a thing that happened and I don’t know who started it.

Jerry Colonna 00:22:58

All right, here’s my grandmother’s recipe for the favorite dish that everybody still prepares on this traditional holiday. Because to get to know people.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:23:07

Yeah, it’s interesting because when that first happened, I guess my initial reaction was, why do people that are, say, younger than me and don’t have kids, why do they even care to see these things? I don’t understand, but in our conversation, I see that in a different. I will follow up, though, with this question of you said when the situation in Gaza happened and people understood each other more, there have been a few companies in the startup world that have literally come out and said no more slack channels about basically issues going on in the world or it just creates too much divisiveness within our companies. We’re here. This is the mission of our company and that’s all we’re going to do. You’re free to do whatever else outside of company time, but we’re on this mission. And I think, again, it just comes from the sense of, like, we don’t want to create divisiveness we want to be able to hire all sorts of people from different walks of life. And if we started to create spaces where who knows what’s going to be discussed, maybe that’s going to make our teams not work better together. But it’s very interesting because your example is counter to that, that actually allowing for conversations to happen can bring people together rather than be divisive.

Jerry Colonna 00:24:21

Let me make a point about a nuanced difference. Okay? In the example I gave you, they already had space for inclusion of all those other feelings and experiences, which then promulgated a sense of empathy. Even though you may come from a different country, in a different ethnic background, you may even worship God in a different way than I do. We’re actually more alike than we are different. And so when we have a disagreement, it’s really hard for me to dehumanize you. If I actually know you, we can disagree. But what the reaction that you’re describing, people trying to shut down conversation. The problem with that is that it presumes that by shutting down conversation, we’re going to turn off feelings.

Jerry Colonna 00:25:09

And that doesn’t work. All you do is drive the feelings below ground. Now, because there are a lack of traditions for how to deal with the very human part of people. We don’t know how to deal with disagreement. And so I understand the impulse to shut down everything. And one of the things that you can say is, look, we have a value where we respect each other, and if you violate the respect value, then you’re going to be fired. I have no problem with that.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:25:40

But you would not be in favor of a no politics rule or those sorts of statements. No politics in slacken. You would not go against that.

Jerry Colonna 00:25:50

I would hope that leadership in those companies would be able to foster an alternative conversation, which is the ways in which we’re much closer to each other, so that when those very difficult feelings come up, there is a way to process those feelings within an organization. I’m not a huge fan of using slack to say I’m a Democrat or I’m a Republican or I’m a liberal or I’m a conservative. I’m not sure that that fosters actual belonging or conversation, but I’m equally not a fan of shutting people down. See, I don’t think of reunion, my new book, as a conversation ender, meaning I don’t propose, I don’t suggest that this is the be all and end all to the answers to all these problems. If you’re looking to reunion to tell you whether or not you should shut down your slack channels, you’re going to be sorely disappointed because that’s not what the book is about. What I’m trying to do is suggest a way to have conversations that lay the foundation for us to see the humanity in each other. Because once I see the humanity in you, once you’re more than just another person on a slack channel, I can then disagree with you without taking you down. And likewise, you can see me without taking me down.

Jerry Colonna 00:27:20

And a way to think about this is, look, I live in Colorado. Half my neighbors are Trump supporters. The other half of my neighbors are Biden supporters. The truth of the matter is I like all my neighbors, some of my neighbors, like the Colorado Rockies, I’m a New York Yankees fan. We can have an argument about those things without tearing each other apart. Because here’s the thing. If we can’t have discussion without tearing each other apart, then I think more is at loss, more is at stake than being right about a particular point of view or not. We have to be able to get along.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:27:57

Yeah, this getting along part and creating that kind of belonging environment. I have a interesting story. So I immigrant grew up in the US and I now live in Canada. And I remember in my city, which is Ottawa in Canada, there was this local entrepreneurship award. I was the immigrant entrepreneur of the year. And so lo and behold, I was nominated. I won this award and they messaged me. And my initial reaction was, I don’t know that I want this award.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:28:30

I don’t want to be labeled as like the immigrant entrepreneur. And I was very conflicted by it. And then I thought about it for a bit. I legitimately was going to say, no, don’t nominate me. I don’t want to win this award. That was the initial thought. But then as I thought about it a little bit more, it kind of occurred to me that just thinking about that system point of view, I live in a city where there’s this thing where they celebrate immigrant entrepreneurs. And if I don’t go, then I’m basically saying, that’s bad.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:28:59

This is not a thing. But by going a, it is an honor, obviously. But in addition to that, it’s kind of showcasing my support to this idea and creating a sense of belonging, like you said. And it’s a very big and important thing because when people belong, they’re going to be more comfortable. They’ll be themselves. They’ll say, this is the place for me, and then they can do their best work. And so that was a very big realization for me. And maybe I realized that much later in life.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:29:29

How do you get people to create empathy? I mean, you yourself said, I identify as white. I don’t necessarily identify as a minority. For people who are not in the minority, like, how can one kind of get them to basically build that kind of empathy? Because it is a hard thing to do. I didn’t really get there until I was kind of put into such a situation. It is a tough one.

Jerry Colonna 00:29:53

So that’s why the book is actually called reunion. And embedded in it is something that I would call as the reunion process. And one of the first steps is to reunite with not just the myths of your ancestors, but the reality of their experience. In your case, think back, what country were you born in before you emigrated?

Aydin Mirzaee 00:30:17

I was actually born in India, but persian background.

Jerry Colonna 00:30:21

Gotcha. So, Parsi.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:30:24

Yes.

Jerry Colonna 00:30:25

And so actually, your ancestors emigrated from Persia to India. And so emigration is a part of the family lineage. And so imagine for a moment being able to reconnect and reunite with those who actually came to India. Thats how far back you could go. And imagine the conditions in Persia that they left. Why did they leave? Right. Theres the religious component of why they left. Was it Alexander the great who also helped foster that movement from Persia to India? Am I remembering correctly? You’re smiling?

Aydin Mirzaee 00:31:09

Yeah, I’m smiling because there is an aspect of that for sure.

Jerry Colonna 00:31:13

Right. So part of this reunion process is to reunite with the stories of our ancestors, and part of it is to reunite with the parts of ourselves that we may have left behind. My ancestors came from Italy and Ireland, and they went out of their way to anglicize as quickly as possible, to fit in as quickly as possible. And I understand that that was a movement towards safety, but what was lost and to sort of resurface and bring that back into the experience and then from that place, consider the immigrants at the borders today. Just consider, I’m not saying change policy. I’m just saying consider the experience. And I’m not saying it’s an equivalent experience. I just want to connect with the experience.

Jerry Colonna 00:32:06

And then from that connecting point, look, in the case of the United States on the border with Mexico, then make a policy decision, because I will bet you that the policy decision will be informed by empathy. That’s all I’m asking for.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:32:23

Yeah. And I think all this stuff, of course, leads back to all of us leaders, everyone listening to the show creates those kinds of environments within their workplace. And so, yeah, it starts from empathy. I love the idea of the slack channel and getting everybody to know each other, but the idea of creating that kind of belonging really does go a long way. So Jerry, this has been an awesome conversation. We’ve talked about so many different topics. Congratulations on the new book for everyone wanting to check it out. Reboot IO.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:32:52

Jerry is known as the CEO Whisperer. He’s coached a ton of the best executives out there. Create this company reboot where you can check it out and be part of their coaching programs or their boot camps. And of course, the books are listed there. And Jerry, the two rapid fire questions that we like to ask at the end are first question, is there something that you would wish that managers would stop doing?

Jerry Colonna 00:33:18

Stop thinking that they have to have all the answers and ask a lot more questions?

Aydin Mirzaee 00:33:24

Love it. And is there something that you believe that others don’t believe as much?

Jerry Colonna 00:33:30

I think I believe more in the power of empathy and compassion than the average person. I fundamentally believe that empathy can change the world.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:33:40

That’s a great answer. And finally, for all the managers and leaders constantly looking to get better at their craft, are there any final tips, tricks, or words of wisdom that you would leave them with?

Jerry Colonna 00:33:50

Look inward. 90% of the sources of information that you need the answers to, the challenges that you have. More often than not, you already know the answer. You’re just a little bit scared to listen to what your heart has to say. Trust yourself. You already know how to do the job.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:34:11

That’s great advice and a great place to end it. Jerry, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

Jerry Colonna 00:34:15

Oh, thanks for having me. It’s always a delight to meet with you, really.

Aydin Mirzaee 00:34:20

And that’s it for today. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Supermanagers podcast. You can find the show notes and transcript at www..Fellow.app/supermanagers. If you like the content, be sure to rate, review and subscribe so you can get notified when we post the next episode. And please tell your friends and Fellow managers about it. It’d be awesome if you could help us spread the word about the show. See you next time.